Higher Learning, Higher Purpose: The Social Mission of Liverpool Hope University

Description:

Dr. Penny Haughan, an esteemed figure in the educational landscape of Liverpool, is intrinsically connected to the city’s rich tapestry of history and progress. As a proponent of social equity and opportunity, her philosophy is shaped by the foundational ethos of the institution she represents. With roots extending back 180 years, Liverpool Hope, which began as an early teacher training facility, has long stood as a beacon of empowerment—heralding the notable inclusion of women educators at a time when their presence in the profession was far from the norm.

Transcription:

Rt Hon Justine Greening (00:01.558)

Welcome to our latest Fit for Purpose podcast. This week, I'm really delighted to be joined by Dr. Penny Haughan . She's Deputy Vice Chancellor and Provost at Liverpool Hope University. It's actually a university with a fantastic heritage and doing some brilliant stuff on social mobility today. And I think, Penny, maybe if you, we should start probably by talking about the heritage of the university. I mean, it's, what, 180 years old.

But give us a little bit of a sense of what it is today and the role that it plays locally, you know, the kinds of students you've got. And then we'll talk about some of the fantastic social mobility work.

Penny Haughan (00:44.78)

Yeah, thank you Justine and thank you for inviting me to do this. It's a real privilege to talk to you about these things. I'm immensely proud of this university. I think it's a really special place. I've been here a long while and I've seen it grow and flourish into something that really is very different and very special. So it's a delight to talk about it. As you say, we are 180 years old. So we've been part of the city, Liverpool, for a long time.

And we're really proud of that. So what we do here is very much embedded in the city and for the benefit of the city. The city of Liverpool is a really great place to be. It has a very interesting history of its own and I'm proud that we're part of that history. So we were created 180 years ago,

and started out as a teacher training college, very, very early teacher training college, and one of the first places where women could train to be teachers. And that's a recurring theme through what we do here is that we have given opportunity to people who in those periods of time wouldn't have had that opportunity. So very much from day one, we've been creating opportunities.

The university really was born out of a period of extreme poverty in the city and with the intention of making education more equitable for the population and more available to the population. So very much from the start, a history of social mobility and contributing to the city to make that better. And even today, if you read our mission statement.

It talks about a quest for truth, beauty and goodness, and the goodness being about social mobility, about the common good, about solutions for local and global people in terms of social mobility and social justice. So it's really fundamental to everything we do, and teaching and education is really, really part of the DNA of what we do here. So these days we teach a huge range of subjects, lots of exciting things, lots of new things, but fundamentally

Penny Haughan (02:55.604)

that's all based on that premise of an excellent education for everybody. And what we try and do is work with our local community groups, with the wider UK population and our international students to ensure that every student has the opportunity to be part of that social good, as well as moving themselves forward in their careers. In terms of the students we have here now, we have a really significant

Rt Hon Justine Greening (03:19.255)

And it's what.

Penny Haughan (03:23.052)

of our population who are from groups within the city of high deprivation. We have a lot of first-generation to higher education students. We have a lot of people who are coming back to education having started careers and looking for an opportunity to make a difference in different environments. We also have a significant proportion of students with disabilities who feel

they can come here and be appropriately supported. So very much we're looking at the common good across everything that we do.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (03:58.638)

And I was going to say, give us a sense of the courses. Now, of course, you start in a crucial area of teacher education, which is fundamental and certainly was fundamental for Liverpool's growth. But now, of course, your offer is so much wider than that. Isn't it, Penny?

Penny Haughan (04:17.032)

Yeah, I mean we started with teacher education and that's still a very significant part of what we do. I actually think there's a really important part of that story which is, you know, we have a high proportion of students from areas of high deprivation, low engagement, but what we're really good at is bringing students into our teacher education courses and then sending them out as trainee teachers and then fully trained teachers back into those communities.

So there's a real pipeline of people going back to their own communities and then inspiring a new generation of young people to take part in education. So that teacher education piece is really important to us to this day. We also have a really exciting and vibrant social work course, which is very unusual in that it is actually focused on social justice, so its roots are in social justice. And quite a

lot of stuff to do with activism and addressing local community issues in that course and that sits really comfortably alongside teacher education because you know work within the community then supports people to come on to education so the social work piece lots of undergraduate courses sitting around that. We're in the middle of developing quite a strong portfolio in health sciences so we might talk about the health offer later on but we've got a great course that we've

and we offer the services of that course out to the community. We're in the middle of developing physiotherapy as well. And then if you move away from those subjects, we've got a broad range of humanities, history, politics, English, and so on. We've also got a very, very active creative campus. So I'm here in Hope Park, which is in Childwall which is a suburb of Liverpool, but we have a second campus in the city centre in Everton,

which is one of the most deprived wards of the city. We have a site there where we regenerated a school. We bought it from the city council for a pound at one point many years ago, and we've been regenerating it. It sits in the ward of Everton and offers creative and performing arts, both to our student community and also to the local community. So there's a lot of social engagement there with the local community, but we offer dance and drama,

Penny Haughan (06:40.668)

and art and music, graphic design, those sorts of courses out at our other campus, which is a completely different environment to what we have here. So we have two very different communities that we're offering these services at the university to.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (06:57.422)

I think it's really interesting because you've almost taken that original ethos that is very hugely value driven and ultimately then built it into the broader university offer anyway, but also then had this super place based approach by, as you say, putting a base right slap bang in the middle of a community in Everton where it can really bring university on the doorstep to people and education.

on the doorstep to people. And I guess, I mean, it's probably worth just talking a little bit about that decision that you took, and if you like the journey that you've been on with that school and then taking that over, and if you like the new offer that you've now gotten. And how hard is it in a sense for people listening and perhaps watching this, how hard is it to...

to build up those relationships and that trust with a wider community that means they feel, yeah, I can go in and make the most of some of these things that are now right where I live too.

Penny Haughan (08:03.372)

I think that's a really, really good question because, you know, it's quite easy for a university to sort of parachute themselves in and sit in the middle of the community and not have any interaction. So the fact that we've managed to embed ourselves in that community is the result of a lot of people's really hard work within the community. So going out, meeting community groups, finding out what they would like, what would help them. So it's very much about

us listening and that's probably the most important message about all of how the community at Everton has embraced that campus is that you know we've listened, we work with a lot of local community groups, our staff are on lots of community groups and work with them to do all sorts of projects. I think that being an arts-based campus is really useful because there's a real way in terms of going out to do all sorts of arts related projects with the local community so

a lot of my colleagues down there were within community groups to do arts-based projects and that's built up trust over the years to the extent now that that's really a firmly embedded part of that community and I do think of these opportunities that are taken up because the community trusts the university to do that. So it's a really vibrant place through the week and through the weekend and through the summer when a lot of universities are really

quiet because of that interaction with the community.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:34.174)

And we're running a broader campaign called Raising Standards, Creating Opportunities that's looking at all of that outreach that universities do. And I think what's interesting about the Liverpool Hope example that you've just talked about, it's sort of different in a sense to what we might normally expect a university to do. Normally we might expect universities to be in schools and talking about how potentially going to university is something, you know, that...

I'm the first in my family to get to university that maybe no one around you has ever thought about doing before. And I know that's also important to Liverpool Hope, but I think what's really inspiring is you thinking of very different ways to build up those relationships. And from your perspective, it is that changing people's perceptions in communities, not just in Everton, but more broadly about the fact that getting to university is something that might be a thing they could aspire to do,

and that actually Liverpool hopes right on their doorstep and offering those opportunities to them.

Penny Haughan (10:40.076)

I think it is changing the way people think about this university. It's a long business building up trust in communities. It's not something you can do overnight. It's something you have to do over a long period of time and prove that you mean it. So not going in and doing quick projects and leaving, this is a sustained effort over a long period of time to build up that relationship. And I think that is making a difference.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (10:47.598)

Hmm.

Penny Haughan (11:10.144)

They can do work with us, they can be part of what we do, and that in itself is then generating, I think even people coming to open days that never would have done that before because they understand about the university and they trust us and they're open to speaking to people that maybe they've met at another event. So the fact that our staff are out running these arts projects and things, actually they're familiar faces.

and people are beginning to build up their confidence to come into the university and talk to people. I mean we're really lucky at Liverpool Hope generally because we're a community here, it's a really genuine community of people who have the good of the city at their heart and that idea of serving the common good. So when people come there's a really friendly atmosphere here and we greet people,

and we look after them and we love feeding people. So, you know, it's about come and have a cup of tea and biscuit and let's see what we can do together. And so it's very much a personal relationship from day one. And I think that's what attracts people to come to us on a broader scale that we're very approachable. We're talking to people about personal education. So if you come here, my message is always, if you come here, we will know who you are and we will look after you and we will

talk to you about your strengths and where you need to grow. And we will make sure that we have a plan where we work on that together, but at a very, very personal level. So a lot of very small group teaching, a lot of career building from day one. So if we can get people to trust us to come into the community, I think we've got a really good offer in terms of then moving them through whatever course they choose to do and out into the world of employment.

And I think that's really important for particularly people who come from the more deprived areas, the first generation to HE, is that most lots of them don't have those contacts which take them seamlessly out into a career as you know people in maybe some rather better communities in terms of finance are. So in terms of people

Rt Hon Justine Greening (13:17.41)

Mmm.

Penny Haughan (13:29.132)

from lower income backgrounds who don't have that family connection to get them out into a career. We can offer them that opportunity from day one, understanding where they started from and moving them forward through a career and providing the opportunities that maybe they can't get from other places.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (13:39.263)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (13:50.174)

I think what's always really interested me about Liverpool Hope is it really does feel like a community. So even the sort of the site that you're on, the main site, it looks like a community actually. When you look at some of those study areas, the way in which the learning is personalised, as you say, it kind of runs across everything. Even the built environment feels very,

I was going to say small scale, but what I mean by that is there's something very personal about it, isn't there? You don't feel like you're in this big, anonymous, huge campus that, you know, there's thousands and thousands of people on and you're one of them. It is, it does feel quite a personal experience, I think.

Penny Haughan (14:37.928)

And I'm glad you feel that when you come on, because that's definitely what we're trying to achieve. So we want people to think that the doors are open here and they're welcome to walk in and the community will look after them. And I think it's easy to say your university is a community, but genuinely here it is. And I think you feel that when you walk through the door. And we have worked really hard. We're really, really lucky here on this campus. We've got a beautiful space to live and work in. And...

Rt Hon Justine Greening (14:42.314)

Mmm.

Penny Haughan (15:05.564)

beautiful space for students to study in. So the way that we've worked on that, we've built new buildings but in great sympathy with the existing provision that we have and we work really hard on areas for people to study in, areas for people to work in that are comfortable and welcoming and where you can work together easily or you can work by yourself if that's what you need to do but that it's comfortable, it's welcoming and people

look after you. So you know if you're in one of our open spaces people will talk to you, people will come over and make sure you're okay and find out what you're studying and you know see if there's anything else we can do to move you on your journey. So it is very personal quite deliberately.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (15:51.262)

And just on the, and I want to come onto the health and wellbeing piece in a second that you mentioned before. But just in terms of that work on helping people connect up to opportunities, because I can really relate to what you're saying. I think it's only as I've got older that I've realised just how, you know, square one I was as I approached graduating. I mean, really had zero network to draw on

in practice. I don't actually think in a way that that's that unusual actually. I think it's the norm for many, many people leaving university but from a Liverpool Hope perspective give us a little bit of a sense of how do you go now building up some of those networks, getting people to think a bit more, a bit more effectively about what comes after

leaving Liverpool Hope.

Penny Haughan (16:51.068)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's something I recognise myself, I guess. I mean, I was first generation to university and I recognise that, you know, those networks probably didn't exist when I graduated. And now I can see how important they are to others. And I'm really quite determined that our students at least start on that pathway. I think it's a really interesting question. And I think actually here it starts almost before you come to hope. So

Rt Hon Justine Greening (17:17.198)

Mm-hmm.

Penny Haughan (17:18.38)

over the last few years, we've actually combined our recruitment team and our careers team. So the careers team are involved in going out to school as well as the recruiters. So rather than going out and saying, oh, come to Hope, we go out and say, what is it that you really want to do? What's your aspiration? And then we look at how we can help you. So, you know, that journey starts almost before you come here. We're not just trying to sell you a place at the university. We're trying to...

Rt Hon Justine Greening (17:42.222)

I'm gonna...

Penny Haughan (17:45.472)

to get you on the ladder in terms of your future. And then while you're here, we would build a career plan with you. And part of that career plan is about giving you opportunities to meet people. So we have regular occasions here when we bring in people from local businesses, we bring in people from, for example, the local schools, we bring in people from the NHS and so on, from the social care organisations.

and give students opportunities to talk to them. So it's about beginning those contacts, it almost if you like in the safe environment of the university, encouraging students to talk to people who maybe they would never meet normally. So very much networking events here. We also run sort of more careers fairs, organised

events so you know that you can come in and talk to people very specifically about careers. But I think that earlier bit about just having a conversation with somebody from a different organization is really important. How do you do that to start with? And that might sound like a really obvious thing but actually you've never been exposed to people from different kinds of organisations. How do you start that conversation? So I think those first steps of doing that are really important.

We also do some really quite basic stuff about learning how to attend events, how to host events, how to welcome people even so that people learn how to be part of environments which, you know, are more business orientated so that you're comfortable when you leave here to go out and interact with people in various different kinds of ways out there. So it's very much about just

getting those conversations started early, making the contacts. You know, if students say to us, this is what I really want to do, we'll find someone for you to talk to. And that, again, is part of being in a smaller university where the contacts are very personal in that, you know, we all know people and we know our students. So connecting them up is part of the joy, I guess, of doing this job.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (19:46.434)

I'm sorry.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (20:01.714)

I think it's brilliant stuff. I'd certainly love to have had a career plan when I arrived at university. I don't think I'd really got much idea, but interestingly, I would have already been thinking, well, I want to work in business, but I didn't really know what that meant. But I think with a little bit of sort of discussion and ideas and then exposure to different sorts of opportunities, I probably could have narrowed it down a lot faster, a

lot faster than I did and I think what it the flip side of this of course and it's worth coming on to the healthcare work you talked about now is actually you know it's worth pointing out that what you're doing is providing talent for a local Liverpool economy and public services is absolutely crucial for the city the city region and beyond for that economic well-being it's

It's opportunities for your students, but actually those opportunities are valuable for the organisations the students are going into.

Penny Haughan (21:08.82)

Yeah, I mean, and that's part of the real importance of universities, and particularly this university and the way we approach things, is that, yes, we're effectively supplying the workforce of the city and well beyond. And a lot of the time, we're providing that workforce from the population of the city. So we are giving the city's young people opportunities to then make much greater contribution to the city. And I would hope because of...

the mission and ethos of the university and the way that we encourage our students to think that we're sending graduates out to serve the city of Liverpool with a set of values which we really value in terms of social mobility and ethos and all of those other things. So you know graduates with those skills with that way of thinking can then contribute to the development of the city.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (22:03.714)

So it's time to come on to what you were talking about. There's this sort of shift of the university also into health, wellbeing. Tell us a little bit about that strategy that you've had, but also how you're delivering it. Because I think there's some quite innovative ways in which you are teaching and training your students.

Penny Haughan (22:27.852)

So yeah, I think one of the things that we've been thinking about over the past few years is that we have this idea of social mobility, of equipping people to go out to serve this city and many cities beyond. And we've been thinking about what our portfolio of courses needs to be to be able to do that. So as I say, probably the first step on that journey was actually the social work program and everything that sits around it. So now.

We graduate a significant number of social workers every year, and some of them stay and serve the city, and some of them go beyond to take that experience elsewhere. And then over the last few years, we've been moving that further into the health arena. So we've had a degree called Health and Wellbeing, which has been really successful. And now we're moving across into the health-related professions. So,

the sport rehabilitation degree that we run is really successful and really quite unusual. And again, that equips students with an accredited degree to go out and deliver health care in the city. But what it also does is it provides a clinic for the local population. So the sports rehabilitation students run a clinic which sits within the university, which the staff and students of the university are welcome to use, but also the local

community come in and use. So not only are we training the sports rehabilitation staff for the future, but we're serving the city at the same time by providing opportunities for sport rehabilitation, which, you know, generally are quite difficult to get. So that opportunity is there for people to do that. As I said earlier on, we're just about to start the journey of doing physiotherapy and we'll very much work that on the same principle that we will run a physiotherapy clinic here

Rt Hon Justine Greening (24:17.294)

Mm-hmm.

Penny Haughan (24:21.053)

and that again will be open to the community to access to give them that opportunity to get healthcare in a different way I guess.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (24:30.446)

And I think if you then connect it, as you say, Penny, back to that social mobility agenda, when we know that we have the purpose goals framework we use with all of our purpose coalition members and goal eight is health and wellbeing, because actually it's either an enabler of being able to connect up to university or conversely it's something that stops people from going to the opportunities they want to. And I think...

Penny Haughan (24:52.821)

Yeah.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (24:55.178)

you know, as we talk, there's a broader debate, isn't there, about just how many people feel they can't work, they can't get to opportunities. And at the root of that actually is a health and wellbeing challenge. And it's not like this is new either, we've known about it really properly, I guess, since Professor Michael Marmot did his groundbreaking work, what, probably about 12 or 13 years ago now. So it's so the two things go intrinsically together, don't they?

Penny Haughan (25:11.612)

Indeed.

Penny Haughan (25:24.948)

They do. And I think it's very interesting. We're also looking at this from a completely different angle here. So not only are we looking at maybe the more, you know, formal health related stuff I've just talked about, but we've also been having a huge focus on wellbeing here. And that's wellbeing for our students, wellbeing for our staff, but also wellbeing for the local community. So over the last few years, we, we've developed something that we call the community engagement group, who's

purpose is to work with sections of the community locally and involve them in the life of the university and address well-being needs through that. So we have a choir, which is made up of a significant number of elderly people from the local community who come in every week and sing, and then they perform at university events. They're gonna perform at graduation in the summer. Absolutely great. We

host the local pantomime. So our staff have been working with the local community on doing drama and that culminated in Robin Hood, which the community performed here for us at Christmas. It was brilliant. We have a local gardening club. So all sorts of things where the university is opening its doors to the wellbeing of the local community and the wellbeing that we get

as an institution from those people being part of what we do is just unbelievable. It's, you know, it just brings a smile to your face every time you see what's happening there. And then, you know, the staff, we have all sorts of opportunities. So we run clinics for bone marrow, but for bone density screening, we run clinics and blood pressure checks. We have walking clubs. What's really unusual here is we have an hour every week we call foundation hour,

where everything stops, there are no meetings or anything like that, and staff are able to use that hour as an opportunity to do wellbeing activities or a period of reflection. So that happens every Wednesday at one o'clock, everything stops here, and people have that hour to do as they wish with. Again, I think that's just a really important message that we're thinking about staff, we're thinking about what their lives are like and what we might do to help them

Rt Hon Justine Greening (27:16.418)

Mm-hmm.

Penny Haughan (27:46.152)

and their wellbeing, as well as the whole student population and all the things that we would do for them as you would expect in terms of wellbeing.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (27:56.618)

It's really about tools for life. And I think it's interesting, probably brings us on to the, in a sense, the last bit that I really wanted to ask you about Penny, which is you talked about the staff and of course, you know, I think it's probably fair to say that when most of us are at school, we're not necessarily thinking about ever having a career in higher education or academia. We almost, so some people will think about being a teacher. Interestingly, very few people think about, or maybe I might

quite like to work in higher education. So tell us a little bit about your own journey. I mean obviously you've done brilliant knee, you're a vice-chancellor and you speak with such passion about Liverpool Hope and if you like what it can achieve for people, you know this vehicle that it is for people you know in their lives but tell us a little bit about that journey you've had to be where you are now.

Penny Haughan (28:54.076)

Yeah, it's a really interesting question, isn't it? Because I don't think any young person sits there and thinks, oh, you know, I'll be a deputy vice chancellor someday. It's probably not. I probably didn't even know what one was when I left school. So I went to university to study biochemistry. So my underpinning education is very much science based. So I did a degree in biochemistry, followed by PhD. And

Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:00.686)

Yeah.

Penny Haughan (29:22.1)

that was mainly at the University of Liverpool. So I grew up in the south of England and I came to Liverpool. I love Liverpool as a city. I was completely enthralled by it from the minute I arrived here and clearly I've never left. So being part of the city of Liverpool and the people of Liverpool is just wonderful. So I did my PhD and I then moved on to postdoctoral research. So I did a period of time as a postdoctoral researcher.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:34.658)

Yeah

Penny Haughan (29:49.924)

I was working on a disease called Lyschmaniasis, which is a disease of the developing world, which is endemic in a lot of countries and is a really very unpleasant disease, but it doesn't attract much funding in terms of drug development because there isn't money behind it. So I was on a project which looked at using existing drugs to see if we could find a way to use them to treat Lyschmaniasis because then you don't get the drug development

Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:54.346)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Penny Haughan (30:18.852)

costs. So I did that for a number of years and I thoroughly enjoyed that. I had a great time. Being a researcher is a real privilege. You learn a lot in a short period of time, but during that time as well as most PhD students, postdoctoral teachers, workers, I did some teaching and I realised that I thoroughly enjoyed teaching students. That led to a period of lecturing at another institution and then

Rt Hon Justine Greening (30:19.709)

Mm-hmm.

Penny Haughan (30:47.252)

believe it or not, 28 years ago, I came to Liverpool Hope as a very, very junior lecturer on a very, very temporary contract. And somehow I'm still here. So I was employed as a part-time lecturer in biology to start with. And I worked my way up through being head of department. I was the Dean of Science for a while.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (30:54.486)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (31:05.127)

Mm-hmm.

Penny Haughan (31:12.628)

And then over the last few years, I've taken a more central role in the university in terms of overseeing, particularly the student experience. So I spent several years as the Dean of Students, which I absolutely adored. I had a really, really great time looking after the experience of all students. That also coincided with the period of COVID. So big learning curve in terms of making sure our students were cared for

and safe over the COVID period. And coming out of that, I was made Deputy Vice Chancellor, so now I have a portfolio which does include the student experience, but also includes all of the academic areas of the university, the marketing, the pastoral care. So it's a very big role and I have some absolutely wonderful colleagues who work with me to support all of that work.

But it's just such an exciting role. I absolutely love my job. I could talk to you about it for ages and ages, but that privilege of being able to see students every day and make sure the experience they get is exactly what we want them to have, to make sure they do get that opportunity that we've just spent half an hour talking about, to make sure that my colleagues in the academic areas have what they need to be able to help students along that way, and they have what they need to pursue,

Rt Hon Justine Greening (32:13.604)

Hahaha!

Penny Haughan (32:38.08)

pursue their research careers is really, really important. It's so exciting to be able to sit and see all of that coming together to create this institution where I work, which is, as you said, a place where I'm very passionate about. And definitely I didn't expect to be here when I started out on my career. So, you know, it has been a really interesting journey. I've been given wonderful opportunities here. And the outcome of that is I feel so privileged to be part of this institution.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (33:09.034)

And it's such a good example of how actually, you know, you take a temporary job somewhere and it ends up being very permanent. But sometimes you just have to go to opportunities and see where they take you really. And I think the other observation is one of the reasons I absolutely loved being Education Secretary. I always say it's the best role I ever had is because it's so vocational, isn't it?

Being part of education and I think sometimes, you know, we're quite used to hearing maybe from teachers in our secondary school, primary schools, you know, and how passionate they are but I think sometimes it's easy to miss the fact that there's as much passion for education in our higher education system as anywhere else and it really matters.

Penny Haughan (34:01.212)

I think you're absolutely right. And if you could be here on an open day and see potential students coming in who are quite scared, who are with their mum and don't really want to talk to you, and you see them and you meet them, and you talk to them about this university and you explain to them all the things that they might be able to do while they were here and the opportunities that you can give them. And then...

You see them, I'm very lucky, I sit in the middle of the university and they walk past my window every day, so quite a lot of them stop and wave and things and so it's great, but you see them develop through their university career and you know, you maybe watch them have a little disaster on one thing and pick themselves up and go on. But that moment when they cross the platform at graduation and you think, I remember you, open day and you know.

Penny Haughan (34:47.136)

that how they've grown and how you can see them now on a career trajectory. And then they might write to you in a couple of years time and say, well, I thought you'd like to know that I'm doing this, this and this. That is such a privilege. And it's so exciting.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (35:00.818)

It is brilliant and certainly going to university, I was one of those people, absolutely transformed my life. So, so Dr. Penny Haughan, Deputy Vice Chancellor at Liverpool Hope, it's fantastic having you in Liverpool Hope as part of the Purpose Coalition. And it's been such a pleasure and a privilege to talk today. I think you've really brought this all alive for anyone listening. So thank you for your time in doing that. We've loved having you on the podcast. So.

Penny Haughan (35:07.648)

Thanks for watching.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (35:29.782)

Thank you very, very much.

Penny Haughan (35:31.532)

Thank you, Justine.